tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post2272866225139933272..comments2024-03-21T17:47:00.116-04:00Comments on Thank You Terry: Cause For Concern?Kyle Rossihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03988727251887693489noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-372070678116878702012-06-27T20:46:40.948-04:002012-06-27T20:46:40.948-04:00PSU will be fine. It will just take some time. N...PSU will be fine. It will just take some time. Next year's home schedule is extremely weak. They will draw significantly better once the new arena opens. The vast (if not all) of their games will be on the weekend, which should help with attendance. Plus, once they start to gel on the ice and become competitive, fans will fill the seats. Lastly, let's not underestimate the importance of the new building. It is going to be a great place to watch a game!PSU45056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-17155463184294135652012-06-21T19:50:18.837-04:002012-06-21T19:50:18.837-04:00Somehow I thought Vermont seated 7k. No idea where...Somehow I thought Vermont seated 7k. No idea where I got that number.<br /><br />Some people will travel to see PSU hockey, especially on a Saturday, but the closest city of any size is Harrisburg, and that's 90 miles. A lot of those people are already plugged into the Hershey Bears.<br /><br />I think PSU will recruit heavily in the Buffalo area. No doubt.Reednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-72538912139335672782012-06-20T15:09:17.968-04:002012-06-20T15:09:17.968-04:00Gutterson Field House, where Vermont plays, is aro...Gutterson Field House, where Vermont plays, is around 4,000 seats. Its average attendance was 3,573 for 2011-12. So, it was 89% full on average. That would be equivalent to 5,355 showing up for Penn State games on average. Average attendance at B1G Hockey programs is 7,295 in terms of attendance and 74% of capacity. Those numbers are skewed because Wisconsin and Ohio State play in what are pro arenas for all intents and purposes. I will avoid a rant about how pro-sized venues are absurd for college hockey. That's why Red Hot Hockey at The Garden for BU-Cornell feels somewhat amiss each time that I go. I digress. The average attendance will drop somewhat with the reduction in size of Yost Ice Arena that is occurring this summer. So, if Penn State manages the pull of Vermont with 89% occupancy, then it will compare favorably to the average attendance at Munn and Yost.<br /><br />I think that Vermont benefits from the fact that it is in a solidly hockey-orientated region. Pennsylvania is still an atypical hockey market. The problems that plagued the early varsity program at Penn State indicate why. Sure, Pennsylvania is not SoCal or Alabama, but it is also not Minnesota, Michigan, Massachusetts, or New York. So, I think that some of the latent repositories of hockey interest that exist in those hockey states might be lacking. I go to games commonly at Lynah Rink and many of the people in the general admission section are from as far away as Syracuse (60 miles), Hamilton (72 miles), Hornell (85 miles), Rochester (90 miles), Buffalo (150 miles), and Schenectady (160 miles). So, the notion that someone would not travel long distances for quality hockey to me creates somewhat of a cultural shock. All of those cities of origin have college hockey programs far closer too. That leads me to one benefit that Penn State has that Vermont.<br /><br />Vermont has the benefit of geography because, well, hockey is ingrained in New-England culture. However, because it is ingrained in New-England culture there are many more programs in the region that have far better histories of success. Vermont has its rare moments, but generally, as it was in the ECAC, is not a national power. Meanwhile, Dartmouth is 90 miles away, Clarkson is 140 miles away, Union is 140 miles away, RPI is 150 miles away, UMass is 200 miles away, UMass-Lowell is 200 miles away, and that is not to mention that within three hours are BC, BU, Harvard, and UNH as well as other Atlantic Hockey teams that I did not mention. Mercyhurst is almost a four-hour drive from University Park. RMU is 140 miles away. So, Penn State has nowhere near as large of an issue with regional competition for fans or alternative for those who want to see quality college hockey. So, I think that the comparison with Vermont is apt. Penn State might have a regional/cultural disadvantage, but it benefits from its brand in the region, its lack of a well-established history of a lack of success, and its lack of nearby competitors.<br /><br />I am no expert on the NCAA rules but I think as community outreach most teams give tickets to regional teams. I am not positive, but I see no reason why it would violate any rules unless one frames the ticket as an illegal gift. That might be the case. However, if such gifts are allowed, I see no reason why Penn State should not outreach to schools with hockey programs in Pennsylvania. I think also that Penn State should take advantage of the Pegula connection and cultivate ties with Western New York. A large portion of recruiting classes for BU, Cornell, Harvard, and Union are now coming from Western New York. So, it is a market ripe with talent that has not ossified with loyalties to specific programs like some regions in Canada and other American hockey markets have.Aaron Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17726344586082248891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-34249631419604975092012-06-20T14:21:09.224-04:002012-06-20T14:21:09.224-04:00If I'm not mistaken, 6000 is about what UVM ha...If I'm not mistaken, 6000 is about what UVM has, which might be a more comparable geographic situation. <br /><br />They're going to face the same problem that Penn State basketball has always faced with getting people to come very far. The key will be students and then if they can get some success maybe some people will come from a bit further away, but never many. <br /><br />You know people in the PSU hockey world, perhaps you should write a strongly worded letter saying they need to raise their game on this. <br /><br /><br /><br />Hockey is probably more popular than basketball around here overall, and certainly the people who care about hockey tend to care about it a lot, but it's still going to be a chore to get people up to speed on college hockey, whereas college basketball is familiar even to those of us who don't really care about it.<br /><br />Also, for a long time, PSU basketball has carried an aura of hopelessness with it that deters people from taking an interest. Hockey won't have to fight that for at least a few years and hopefully never.<br /><br />I don't know what the NCAA rules are on this, but one way to put butts in seats and draw crowds is to sell/give tickets to youth hockey organizations from around the state. I've noticed at PSU lacrosse games that it appears the entire Carlisle HS team (or a big chunk of it) comes to ever game and I always see lots of groups all wearing the same team jackets, often from places several hours away. I've seen the same at PSU soccer and volleyball That's a built in audience for whom travelling a few hours for even a mediocre team is no hardship, it's fun.Reednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-35256298552907701372012-06-20T13:54:16.822-04:002012-06-20T13:54:16.822-04:00Troll can't even spell "crappy" corr...Troll can't even spell "crappy" correctly.Reednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-55606333830787121102012-06-19T18:12:13.548-04:002012-06-19T18:12:13.548-04:00Everyone (except the last guy): good points... I&#...Everyone (except the last guy): good points... I'm struggling a little, because I do recognize the arguments the other way and tried to keep the tone of the post "here's why I'm worried" and not "OMG, we're totally screwed." I bought tickets last year specifically to guarantee them for this year, and then in the PIA, so right there, you can tell where my expectations were: "there's going to be a ridiculous crush for tickets in the tiny arena for a historic season, I'd better plan ahead." It seems as if anyone who really wants tickets will get them, which is stunning to me. <br /><br />Obviously it's not too late, but I hope that the powers that be recognize that people liking the Penguins and Flyers and seeing a shiny new building won't be enough. A parallel situation isn't enough for PSU baseball, anyway. Long-awaited? Built-in advantage of having the Icers' history and following? Sure. But there's a lot of work yet to be done. Every other Big Ten hockey program is within 90 minutes of the center of a major city. Someone employed in Detroit can leave work on time Friday and be in East Lansing for a 7:30 puck drop with little issue, then be back home before midnight. Minnesota and OSU are IN major cities (somewhat flexible definition on Columbus). Penn State needs to have a hugely engaged population relative to size to make up for that. Or expand the student section. Given the realities we've all discussed, PSU's best chance for great crowds rests in the students, not from the townies, and certainly not from people like me driving in from Ohio. <br /><br />There were a lot of points I left out to keep the length somewhat reasonable, so thanks to all of you for getting at some of those (again, except the "crapy" comment just above mine).Kyle Rossihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03988727251887693489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-27395933245396829722012-06-19T13:40:44.601-04:002012-06-19T13:40:44.601-04:00Wait until 2 years from now, PSU will have only 20...Wait until 2 years from now, PSU will have only 2000 fans who will care about their crapy team.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-23054318531293085852012-06-19T13:02:24.784-04:002012-06-19T13:02:24.784-04:00I'm not terribly concerned about the sales of ...I'm not terribly concerned about the sales of the 200 packages. It's summer. PSU fans are, needless to say, a bit preoccupied with other news and there hasn't been a ton of marketing about it. There should be a billboard on 322 and the turnpike about the coming of PSU hockey. Is there? I don't think so.<br /><br />Clearly more needs to be done to market the program and clarify all of that to those outside the core Icers audience. The Caravan was a good start, but it needs more. Also, it needs to be explained better. Pennsylvania is a good hockey market, I'm confident, but has little to no experience with *college* hockey and that makes a difference. It's going to require a bit of "College Hockey 101"-type promotions.<br /><br />I've had the same experience talking to people about it that you have had. They're excited about the idea, but just don't understand what's happening or when or how. You'd think they would just look it up online, but most people are not, for reasons I don't understand, like that. I find a surprising level of ignorance about other sports things happening in town, like, for example the Spikes. "We have a professional baseball team here? Really? And there's one in Altoona you say? Never heard of it." <br /><br />It just never occurs to people to proactively seek information. Especially people over a certain age.<br /><br /><br /><br />The student section needs to be bigger. 1000 is way too small. It will be deeply distressing if the student section sells out quickly and there are still empty seats. It's also plausible that they could designate 1000 as "The Student Section" but still offer students seats in other parts of the rink at a reasonable price.<br /><br />(On the other hand, I've had people ask me "How come it's only going to be 6000 seats?" As if that's really small. I think that PSU is always going to have a bit of trouble getting fans to drive from Philadelphia or Pittsburgh for anything other than football, especially on week night. It's simple geography. Minnesota and Michigan can fill 10-12k rinks largely because most of those people live nearby.)<br /><br />Some things that haven't happened yet will definitely improve marketing. The construction of the arena will be the most important. Just seeing it in all its glory on university drive will draw a lot of curiosity (by contrast, there are still a lot of people who don't know the location of any PSU sports venue other than Beaver Stadium or BJC). Having games on the BigTen Network will help, playing teams that most people have heard of will help, promotions during time-outs at football games will be a huge help, write-ups in the newspaper, etc. I'm not sure how much winning there's going to be, unfortunately, so there is a Catch-22 there. <br /><br />I think it's the lack of name brands on the schedule more than the weakness of it that is hard to market. I think that most fans will respond more to playing Ohio State than playing North Dakota, Miami, or Denver even though the latter are actually better opponents.<br /><br />Something that concerns me is the lack of coverage in the papers around the state- Post-Gazette, Inquirer, Patriot, etc. They have no history of covering college hockey, so will they be willing to put a beat writer on PSU? I sure hope so. The Patriot at least covers PSU wrestling and basketball, but the big city papers don't really. How is PSU going to build awareness of the team in the big cities?Reednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-61870306335401584142012-06-19T01:39:13.056-04:002012-06-19T01:39:13.056-04:00Very well said. It captures my worries well. I mig...Very well said. It captures my worries well. I might be ever so slightly more pessimistic about the student section than you are, but we agree that there is cause for concern with the interest level. I was shocked when I saw the tweet from PSU Men's Hockey that there were ticket packages still remaining. It is very disappointing. I mean none of this as an offense to Pennsylvania, but I am not sure if those in administrative and promotional positions realize how difficult it will be to cultivate the requisite passion and interest for a successful college hockey program in an atypical hockey market. It seems like many, from my few conversations with them, take for granted that because Beaver Stadium is full on Saturday that Pegula will be full on Friday and Saturday nights.<br /><br />As I have said, programs like Cornell and Michigan that sell out their venues regularly now began with droughts of attendance. Sparty fans outnumbered Michigan fans in Yost regularly for decades until Berenson resurrected the program in the early 1990s. Lynah Rink at Cornell was dead and barely garnered crowds of 2,000 from 1957 until the 1962 Harvard game when it was over-capacity. If something is not done to bolster greater interest on campus and in the community, Penn State will be headed toward the same existence. However, unlike Cornell and Michigan, that were building or resurrecting their programs when the recruiting markets were regional. Now, recruiting is international. The options for potential recruits at Penn State are greater than those available to potential recruits to Cornell or Michigan. Most recruits to major hockey schools cite a tradition of winning and zealous fans as why they chose a given school. Penn State is brand new for all intents and purposes, so it has not the former. If the Ice Pavilion cannot sell out, then things do not bode well for the latter. No one wants to play in front of an empty building, no matter how state-of-the-art it is. This situation will be exacerbated only when play moves to a 6,000-seat arena.<br /><br />The panic began for me with the fact that the benched student section is limited to 17% of Pegula. That figure bothers me. Penn State is the second largest university in terms of enrollment that sponsors NCAA Division I hockey but it will have a smaller percentage of its seats dedicated to students in its arena. 37% of Yost is dedicated to student season ticket holders. 48% of Lynah is dedicated to student season ticket holders. Cornell offers ~500 student season tickets than will Penn State with Cornell having less than 35% of the undergraduate population of Penn State. So, if you're right that there should be no alarm or concern about student interest, then, it seems like having a plan that would have created a larger student section would have alleviated some of those concerns.<br /><br />I would tend to blame other odds choices for a nascent program and too few public campaigns not the weakness of the home schedule. As we discussed on Pride of Pegula Forum regarding the Vermont game at Wells Fargo, the new fans who are not already devoted college hockey fans would not realize that the home schedule is that weak. Sure, they know that there's not a name brand like Michigan, but they probably do not realize whether AIC or Air Force is great or abysmal.<br /><br />The catch-22 of college hockey is that one cannot build a large and passionate fanbase unless one's university team is successful, but in the modern recruiting era, one cannot gain commitments from the players who will make a program successful without a large and passionate fanbase. There are few exceptions to this rule. I am sure you know which one that I have chosen to avoid mentioning. Something novel needs to be done. The lack of clarity about student tickets and the fact that, unlike football, everything cannot be done online so people may be unsure how to get tickets or dislike the unfamiliarity with a different process has just aggravated the process of building a fanbase.Aaron Griffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17726344586082248891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1327069433246447816.post-5774268136226332202012-06-19T01:33:44.231-04:002012-06-19T01:33:44.231-04:00Great write up. I almost wonder if this is one of ...Great write up. I almost wonder if this is one of those cases of "I know that tickets will be available, so why should I buy them now" or "It's summer and unless I'm an absolute fanatic I don't even know ticket packages are on-sale". I, personally, would have been all over them, but like every other PSU athletics event (sans the occasional away game) will be more interested in the TV coverage announcement for next season than ticket packages. Such is life 1,500 miles away from University Park.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18441576400836353658noreply@blogger.com